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Traveling Coin Proxies. What if...
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fox-and-the-hound



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 241
Location: Northeast PA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Traveling Coin Proxies. What if... Reply with quote

What if there were a way to manufacture high-quality proxies of our coins? Imagine buying a coin and receiving several traveling proxy "disks" that are laser-engraved with the image of the original (including tracking number) made just for traveling. If you could have a high-quality replica out traveling the world for only a fraction of the cost of the original would you be interested? You could keep a coin in your collection and continue to release proxies that will most likely end up stolen eventually anyway. Good idea or terrible idea?
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geocachingdragon



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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Location: the great white north

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Like it it would be like a custom Travel bug. The idea of sending out coins is great and i love the joy .But losing them sucks.
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DaFunkyFrogs



Joined: 08 Jul 2008
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Location: Hooterville, CA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

great idea........we hate the idea of furnishing someones collection........
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Castle Man



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great idea. The only issue I see is that in order to get an icon you have to buy 250 numbers from groundspeak at first. Then after that it would be dandy. Anyone could do those just using the same tracking numbers.
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southpawaz



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 19
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not quite the same idea, but along the same line: what about a nontrackable coin that has area onto which could be engraved the tracking number of a lost or stolen coin to recycle the tracking number. I am thinking this may have been done before, I seem to recall moving a coin called "Stop Geocoin Theft" or something like that that actually gave me the icon for a different coin when I moved it.
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fox-and-the-hound



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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Location: Northeast PA

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Castle Man wrote:
Great idea. The only issue I see is that in order to get an icon you have to buy 250 numbers from groundspeak at first. Then after that it would be dandy. Anyone could do those just using the same tracking numbers.


That's not exactly what I was thinking of Jim. I'm thinking about laser engravers. If a producer had a laser engraver and could scan a coin or receive a scan by email, then a pre-built standard proxy disk could be engraved with a 2-tone image by engraving of the original coin with the tracking number.

ie: I have an XLE "X" coin. I would never release it because (insert reason here). I would like it travel on a mission, but it would be snatched up after 1 or 2 hops. So instead of releasing it, I send a scan of it to you, the vendor. You give me a choice of 6 different colored anodized aluminum disks. I pick a blue one. You insert the disk into the engraver and the engraver etches the scanned image onto the disk along with the tracking number. You mail the disk (proxy coin) to me and I release it into a cache to go on a mission. If it goes awol, I email you and order another made. I keep the original coin forever, but can keep replacing proxies that are stolen!

What do you think?
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fox-and-the-hound



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

southpawaz wrote:
Not quite the same idea, but along the same line: what about a nontrackable coin that has area onto which could be engraved the tracking number of a lost or stolen coin to recycle the tracking number. I am thinking this may have been done before, I seem to recall moving a coin called "Stop Geocoin Theft" or something like that that actually gave me the icon for a different coin when I moved it.


That's genius!!! Another very good idea and it would be a "real" geocoin, too. More expensive than what I had in mind, but still a smart solution Smile
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geocachingdragon



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this Idea as well It could be called a ghost coin. Or maybe A lost boy. To resussatate Or bring back the icon of a missing coin, And keep on moving on.
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geocachingdragon



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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Location: the great white north

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh

oh
I have a idea We could call it a coin matters coin. Or a coinmatters ghost coin. Because coins mater we brought it back to life. And since we a few different designers here maybe on the front we could put a few different images Or icons form the different designer that want to be included. Gives us a trackable forum coin witha purpose.
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fox-and-the-hound



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now all we have to do is find someone with an engraver Cool
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fox-and-the-hound



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOooh! Ooh! I got it... a "Stunt Coin" or "Stunt Double" coin - LOL. One side with "Coins Matter" and "Stunt Double" and the otherside with the coin scan and tracking number. Very Happy
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Castle Man



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox-and-the-hound wrote:
OOooh! Ooh! I got it... a "Stunt Coin" or "Stunt Double" coin - LOL. One side with "Coins Matter" and "Stunt Double" and the otherside with the coin scan and tracking number. Very Happy


Now this is genius! So who's the engraver dude? One out there?
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E&Cplus3



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lots of laser engravers on eBay for under $6k! Very Happy
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Tooey



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Castle Man wrote:
fox-and-the-hound wrote:
OOooh! Ooh! I got it... a "Stunt Coin" or "Stunt Double" coin - LOL. One side with "Coins Matter" and "Stunt Double" and the otherside with the coin scan and tracking number. Very Happy


Now this is genius! So who's the engraver dude? One out there?

I am sure that I read recently that www.ukgeocachers.co.uk were going to invest in a laser engraver to make personalised signature items. They are currently attending the UK Mega Event in Harrogate so would probably not be around to give an answer for the time being. But I will try and get them to look in here and post.
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Kismet



Joined: 15 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2008 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are a number of cachers out there that have access to a laser engraver. This one comes to mind http://store.geocoins.net/.
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fox-and-the-hound



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kismet wrote:
there are a number of cachers out there that have access to a laser engraver. This one comes to mind http://store.geocoins.net/.


Thanks, I emailed them to see what they think Smile
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GeoCoins.net



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox-and-the-hound wrote:
Thanks, I emailed them to see what they think Smile


Thank you for bringing this idea to our attention. We think it would be a great idea, but there are some concerns that come to mind immediately, and probably others that I just haven't thought of yet that one of the other partners may think of.

First - typically, we charge a one time setup fee of $30.00 per design. This obviously is a bit expensive for what is expected to be a one time burn. I have an idea that can make that go away, see below.

Second - Laser engravers can etch essentially in gray scale. So if you have a color coin, you will lose that color. Blanks of different colors can be ordered, but again, the coin will be shades of that color down to the raw aluminum.

Third - Talk was made of scanning the coin for use in engraving. This is probably a good option for this application. And if everyone can send us the scan as they want it, we can eliminate the setup fee. However, a scan will lose quite a bit of detail. The hard lines we create with the laser are done with vector image information and a scan will be raster. Though that may be "Greek" to some of you, others will understand. If scans are used, they will have to be used with a "burned as is" understanding. If you don't like how it turns out, sorry. It's REALLY hard to a really good burn from a scan. Quality will be a concern. We would work with the first few people to get our side setup so the coins turn out as well as possible, but we can only do so much if we are working from a scan.

Fourth - Tracking numbers will probably not be legible in the scan. We can take care of this, the tracking number just needs to be included as text in the email when the scan is sent in.

Fifth - "Other stuff". The artwork you send us needs to be in gray scale, no color. Our blanks are 1.5" in diameter, and round. Odd shaped coins will not really work, and the scanned art work needs to fit in that 1.5" circle.

Sixth - Oh yeah, almost forgot...the coin must be "yours". Meaning you have the right to do this with the coin. An example of not having the right is we had a customer who wanted a "trackable replacement tag" made for his travel bug. It was one of the Jeep travel bugs. It is not his to create a new one for, so we could not create this replacement for him. So long as you own, or in the case of a Mountain Bike type coin where he keeps ownership, you are the rightful "possessor" or the coin, we can get you fixed up.

We are very interested in trying this if. If someone has a coin they want to try with, let us know.

There may be other things that come up since this is a brand new idea, so please bear with us while we all work out the kinks together.

Brian Allen
GeoCoins.net
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ukgeocachers



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian has hit it right on the head as far as some of the limitations that apply to using laser engravers are concerned. Scanned artwork will produce an image that would be 'adequate' at best I think.

The idea is a great one though and would just need some work to finalise a process and general design for the replacement coins.

The only concern I'd have is the one regarding copyright issues. When coins are designed and minted the artwork and design are copyright of its designer and to use that coins design on another product without their approval may leave you open to problems in the long term.

I think that you'd have a better time running with a bespoke generic design for a tag that could have a tracking code engraved onto it (recycling an old tracking code). Using an aluminium blank would keep costs down to an absolute minimum and having one design would negate the need for a large set-up charge.

Ian
ukgeocachers.co.uk
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fox-and-the-hound



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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Location: Northeast PA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All valid points and exactly what I was hoping to hear! As for copyright issues, these are facsimiles and no different than making a printed paper-coin facsimile so that shouldn't be a problem. Copyright doesn't permit you from using the image for personal use, just from making profit or with intention to distribute. We're not talking about selling fakes, just making copies of what we already own. I think ownership could be easily established by verifaction of tracking code matching the profile as "owned by".

So in a perfect world if you had the vector art we could have something like this... on one side and a "Stunt Coin" logo on the other?


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ukgeocachers



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats a great looking stunt coin. That sort of quality would be easilly achievable with the original artwork but a scanned image would not be as good.

The copyright issues would be with whoever engraves them, as they will have to cover their costs etc they would be making a profit from copying the artwork. Not being a legal eagle myself I am not sure how this stands but I do know that T-shirt print studios for instance will not touch copyrighted images even as one offs for people because of this very issue.

One option would be to contact coin makers directly for permission to produce these copies for owners of their coins. The bonus with doing this is there is a good chance of getting hold of the original artwork for the coins thereby enabling high quality engraving to be produced.

Ian
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fox-and-the-hound



Joined: 02 Jul 2008
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Location: Northeast PA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ukgeocachers wrote:
Thats a great looking stunt coin. That sort of quality would be easilly achievable with the original artwork but a scanned image would not be as good.

The copyright issues would be with whoever engraves them, as they will have to cover their costs etc they would be making a profit from copying the artwork. Not being a legal eagle myself I am not sure how this stands but I do know that T-shirt print studios for instance will not touch copyrighted images even as one offs for people because of this very issue.

One option would be to contact coin makers directly for permission to produce these copies for owners of their coins. The bonus with doing this is there is a good chance of getting hold of the original artwork for the coins thereby enabling high quality engraving to be produced.

Ian


I see your point, but the copier would be doing work for hire actually. Once you copied a coin for me, you wouldn't be able to continue making copies and sell them or distribute them. So I'm really paying you for labor only. You could also ask anyone submitting work to be responsible for aquiring permissions as well to cover your bases. One could also ask for permission directly from cachers who's personal coins might be part of this project. I can't see any reason I wouldn't give permission for people to use mine. I would want stolen/lost coins to continue their missions that they were sent out on.

I'll ask a caching legal eagle I know for any problems that might be encountered and get back. Smile
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GeoCoins.net



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fox-and-the-hound wrote:
All valid points and exactly what I was hoping to hear! As for copyright issues, these are facsimiles and no different than making a printed paper-coin facsimile so that shouldn't be a problem. Copyright doesn't permit you from using the image for personal use, just from making profit or with intention to distribute. We're not talking about selling fakes, just making copies of what we already own. I think ownership could be easily established by verifaction of tracking code matching the profile as "owned by".

So in a perfect world if you had the vector art we could have something like this... on one side and a "Stunt Coin" logo on the other?



This is actually raster artwork, not vector. The easiest way to tell the difference is the file type. Jpg, Gif, Tif, etc., are all raster. EPS, CDR, AI, are all vector. However, taking a JPG and putting it in an Illustrator file and saving it does NOT make it vector artwork. Wink

The issue of copyright is certainly a sticky one. Again, one of the things I had not thought of. And it all lies on where the ownership of the design is. Some of the mints may retain copyright on the artwork, others may relinquish it, it's each mints discretion. So even though you had the coin made, you might not have the legal rights to make a copy of it.

It is really a fine line, in line with the "ownership" of a coin. If you trade for a coin, don't you now own it? I gave you something in return for it, so it is now mine. But some don't see it that way, and that is for a completely different thread, just an example.

F&H, please let us know what you find out after talking with your legal counsel.

Brian
GeoCoins.net


Last edited by GeoCoins.net on Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fox-and-the-hound



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, just heard back and he says it would be best of course to get permission outright. Personal coins would need a simple nod from the profile that created the coin. The person who commisioned the artwork is the owner of the design regardless of who did the work unless stated otherwise in a contract. The tracking number of course is owned outright so we could do a generic Stunt Coin without any permissions needed there. I think it might actually be a selling point to offer downloadable artwork with a new coin purchase from a commercial site, but I'll have to talk with some coin manufacturing friends and get their take on it.

On the format end of it, AI has made it very, very easy now with LivePaint and LiveTrace to make a two-tone vector so it shouldn't be too hard even it's just an image from a scan. Smile
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Castle Man



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's something I am making now. I will be able to offer these for your activated coins for $1.49 each. This includes engraved tracking numbers. The idea is for your activated coins instead of taking the risk of losing them in the first or second cache. Put the tracking number on one of these Mystery travel dog tags and send it out in the world. If these get lost of stolen you still have your coin home safe with you and you can replace them for just $1.49.......BINGO

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ukgeocachers



Joined: 04 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Castle Man wrote:
Here's something I am making now. I will be able to offer these for your activated coins for $1.49 each. This includes engraved tracking numbers. The idea is for your activated coins instead of taking the risk of losing them in the first or second cache. Put the tracking number on one of these Mystery travel dog tags and send it out in the world. If these get lost of stolen you still have your coin home safe with you and you can replace them for just $1.49.......BINGO

Great idea.
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